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scantronic 9448: false alarm in omitted zone
22-05-2012, 06:47 PM
Post: #1
scantronic 9448: false alarm in omitted zone
horratio - 14-06-2011 03:24 PM

My alarm has started giving a 'false' alarm on a zone that I have omitted.

It's not a new alarm of course, and has had 1 replacement internal
battery, otherwise caused no problems - until last night.

The omitted zone is the upstairs sensor. I have set the alarm
repeatedly today and sat upstairs in a study room.

Each time the alarm has sounded (internal only - as though it is the
entry zone giving time to enter number on keypad).

However, the zone light showing on investigation is the omitted zone.

Any help and suggestions would be very welcome.



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RE: scantronic 9448: false alarm in omitted zone - Rem Alarms - 14-06-2011 05:08 PM

Sre you using the '2 enter' method to part set? You could manually omit that zone. See user manual.
Ron.


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RE: scantronic 9448: false alarm in omitted zone - Guest - 14-06-2011 05:43 PM

Hi Ron,
Yes, I am using the 'X' (zone number) - 'omit', followed by 4 number access code.


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RE: scantronic 9448: false alarm in omitted zone - horratio - 14-06-2011 05:45 PM


(14-06-2011 05:43 PM)Guest Wrote: Hi Ron,
Yes, I am using the 'X' (zone number) - 'omit', followed by 4 number access code.



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RE: scantronic 9448: false alarm in omitted zone - oasistechnical - 14-06-2011 06:05 PM

try setting the alarm, omit the zone that you suspect is faulty,
go into the room that the pir is
and see if your system sets.
if it does with no false alarms, all good
but if your system does not set the zone is not ommited
if the system then sets and does not go off all ok
but if at a later time it does, you might find that your panel is faulty, and requires a replacement


Oasis


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RE: scantronic 9448: false alarm in omitted zone - horratio - 14-06-2011 06:34 PM

Thank you Oasis.

Just to add a bit more detail: I can omit the zone (setting it to omitted as I mention above), then go into the zone without the alarm sounding.
At these times, the pir turns red but the alarm doesn't go off - showing that it is properly omitted - I am assuming.

If I wait 10 mins or longer though (varies), the alarm will go off. Internally at first of course - then fully if not stopped. The lights on the panel show that it is the omitted zone that has set off the alarm. Last night was the first time this fault has occurred. But I've been able to repeat it regularly today.

I think that my tests follow the procedure that you have suggested, am I correct in that please?
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Correction to my initial question:

I said that when the alarm started, it sounded as though it is the entry zone giving time to enter number on keypad.

That was factually incorrect. In fact the tone is a full 'alarm going to go off' tone - not the beeping 'entry' tone, albeit only internally unless stopped quickly. That may be an important difference.

Thank you, will you please consider this in your thinking's.


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RE: scantronic 9448: false alarm in omitted zone - lozevans555 - 14-06-2011 11:25 PM

Hiya Horratio.

I know you said you've had a replacment battery, but how long ago? And are you sure it was a battery problem or a charger problem?

If the battery was dead and then replaced without checking the charger circuit wasn't faulty, then your panel will work fine untill the battery voltage drops again.

Also.

If the charger circuit is working fine and the replacement battery is old/defective then the charger circuit will have to work harder and harder to try and keep the battery up to voltage.

Both of the above can cause unusual and creative problems.


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RE: scantronic 9448: false alarm in omitted zone - engels7570 - 14-06-2011 11:30 PM

Establish which zone it is by observing the control panel indicators. Remove the zone pair ( the wires ) for that zone, wrap each seperately in insulating tape. Place those wires where they cannot touch the printed circuit board or any other wires. Link out the zone terminal pair at the panel with a piece of wire. Close the panel and reset with your user code. When did you last change the standby battery in the control panel ?


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RE: scantronic 9448: false alarm in omitted zone - engels7570 - 14-06-2011 11:30 PM

Crossed posts Loz, my fault.


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RE: scantronic 9448: false alarm in omitted zone - lozevans555 - 14-06-2011 11:33 PM


(14-06-2011 11:30 PM)engels7570 Wrote: Crossed posts Loz, my fault.

Ha ha Its my tediously slow typing


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RE: scantronic 9448: false alarm in omitted zone - engels7570 - 14-06-2011 11:37 PM

It's OK, I'm known on the site for it.


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RE: scantronic 9448: false alarm in omitted zone - horratio - 15-06-2011 09:23 AM

Hi Everyone,

All comments welcome, thank you all very much.

The internal panel battery was changed about 4 years ago and definitely cured the problem then.
Which is not to say that it hasn't 'gone' again. Will test the batteries, thanks.

Unusual though, - when the battery was replaced last time as it was most definitely 'dead', I had no false alarm problems. The dead battery problem that time only came to light due to frequent power cuts - when the alarm went off immediately.


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RE: scantronic 9448: false alarm in omitted zone - engels7570 - 15-06-2011 12:02 PM

At one time it was not uncommon for a battery to be in good condiition after 7 years. These days we don't risk it. At four years it should be changed I reckon, although that may not be the cause of your problem. Have you tried linking out the zone at the panel yet ?


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RE: scantronic 9448: false alarm in omitted zone - horratio - 15-06-2011 12:21 PM

Hi engels7570,

Thank-you for the input.

I tested the panel battery with a meter this morning and it read out at about 14volts, so it seems to me to be ok still.

But no, I haven't tried linking out the zone yet. Thanks for the suggestion. Will give it a try.

Many thanks.


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RE: scantronic 9448: false alarm in omitted zone - engels7570 - 15-06-2011 12:39 PM

Ensure that you are linking out the correct zone.


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RE: scantronic 9448: false alarm in omitted zone - horratio - 15-06-2011 01:22 PM

Yes, - you mean link out the zone that's showing as setting off the alarm when it's been omitted?

That's just a wire between the 2 zone 'x' terminals, having taken out the normal pir wires, is that right please?

I have an installation guide showing me which terminals are proper to each zone.

Thanks for the help.


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RE: scantronic 9448: false alarm in omitted zone - engels7570 - 15-06-2011 02:56 PM

Right ! Don't touch the printed circuit board with any bare wires though. Also, don't go on what the installation guide is saying, it could be right, it could be wrong, best to check the panel indication yourself to make sure.


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RE: scantronic 9448: false alarm in omitted zone - horratio - 15-06-2011 03:41 PM

Thank you engels7570.

I have just linked out the offending zone & taped up the original bare wire ends for safety. (Also noticed warning about static and touching are still in place inside the cover). I merely fully set the alarm now. The pir in the linked out zone lights but doesn't cause alarm to sound, so got correct contacts.

I'm waiting now to see whether that cures the problem.

Assuming it does, what does that 'prove' to be the fault (if anything). The pir, the circuit board, NVM fault?

Want to cure it eventually, not leave a zone pir disconnected.

Thanks for care.


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RE: scantronic 9448: false alarm in omitted zone - oasistechnical - 15-06-2011 05:35 PM

if by `linking out` the formentioned zone,
the system operates ok (which i hope so)
then the fault could be in how its programmed, but thinking again the 9448 has the ability to omit all zones other than e/e and panic.
so all should be well

but if the system still goes into alarm, then i think you have either a failed panel or NVM fault.

which then means, reseting to factory and reprog the system, test agin and if the fault still persists, go buy anaother panel

and in regard to your battery, i have one in my office that says it have 13.29 volts but the capacity (AMP HOUR) is below .9ah on a 7 ah battery,
just because your meter says its 12 or even 14 volt, sorry that does not mean anything.

change it out if it is over 4 years old, but not until you hjave cured the existing fault

Oasis
to many years of fault finding, intalling and generly fitting security,fire systems throughout this fair land of ours !


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RE: scantronic 9448: false alarm in omitted zone - lozevans555 - 15-06-2011 05:50 PM


(15-06-2011 05:35 PM)oasistechnical Wrote: if by `linking out` the formentioned zone,
the system operates ok (which i hope so)
then the fault could be in how its programmed, but thinking again the 9448 has the ability to omit all zones other than e/e and panic.
so all should be well

but if the system still goes into alarm, then i think you have either a failed panel or NVM fault.

which then means, reseting to factory and reprog the system, test agin and if the fault still persists, go buy anaother panel

and in regard to your battery, i have one in my office that says it have 13.29 volts but the capacity (AMP HOUR) is below .9ah on a 7 ah battery,
just because your meter says its 12 or even 14 volt, sorry that does not mean anything.

change it out if it is over 4 years old, but not until you hjave cured the existing fault

Oasis
to many years of fault finding, intalling and generly fitting security,fire systems throughout this fair land of ours !

I've had the same with batt voltage +13 and Ah sub .5!.

Your correct, it would still need changing after 4 years.

For some reason there is a particular make of "black" 12v batteries that seem to bulge and fail alot more. Cant for the life of me think of the make right now


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22-05-2012, 06:48 PM
Post: #2
RE: scantronic 9448: false alarm in omitted zone
engels7570 - 15-06-2011 06:25 PM

At:- ".... Assuming it does, what does that 'prove' to be the fault (if anything). The pir, the circuit board, NVM fault?.."

It means that your panel is working correctly. To confirm this, remove the link and the fault should re-occur. There is a fault in the pir or in the wiring to it.


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RE: scantronic 9448: false alarm in omitted zone - engels7570 - 15-06-2011 06:29 PM

Further to the above; If your alarm is still activating after replacing this link and after ten minutes, suspect a intermittent tamper fault. Your battery should still be changed regardless. Try to recall if you have had any re-decorating or work done on the house recently.


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RE: scantronic 9448: false alarm in omitted zone - engels7570 - 15-06-2011 06:30 PM

Don't forget to replace the link and leave it in position until the source of the fault is uncovered.


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RE: scantronic 9448: false alarm in omitted zone - horratio - 15-06-2011 06:41 PM

OK thanks everyone for that feedback and advice.

My situation now is:
I have 'linked out' the zone that was showing as faulty.
The pir still shows red when walking bye it but the alarm is ok with that.
The alarm is still being set off at random, but now the panel is not indicating any zone as being reponsible.
If that indicates anything more, then posts very welcome.

Assuming the fault is cured eventually, batteries will be replaced. Thanks for that info too.

Recently the fascias have been replaced and all the door/windows repainted. Is that likely to be indicative of anything in itself then (engels7570)?

Failing that, it looks like resetting the NVM.


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RE: scantronic 9448: false alarm in omitted zone - engels7570 - 15-06-2011 06:49 PM

Hi Orratio,

Whilst several of my colleagues tend to go for programming initially, and there's nothing wrong with that. I would prefer to ensure that there are no physical faults in the system before resorting to a NVM reset. You have had work carried out on the property, the alarm is working correctly. These two factors alone point to a problem with the wiring to that detector. If the light stays on constantly then there is a dead short between cables, in most cases, but not between the positive and negative supply, depends on the detector really. If the light is flashing on and off when you move around, this would confirm that the supply to the detector is probably OK. Either way, it's worth trying to locate the run of cable between the detector and panel. I have a feeling you are living in a bungalow ?


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RE: scantronic 9448: false alarm in omitted zone - engels7570 - 15-06-2011 06:50 PM

Please forget the NVM for the time being until the physical probabilities are discounted.


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RE: scantronic 9448: false alarm in omitted zone - horratio - 15-06-2011 07:54 PM

Hi engels7570, thanks for the advice.

The property is a house and all the cabling is within the plaster on the wall, or in the loft under boarding. The only exception being the surface door sensors. They are ok. The outside alarm bell box wasn't moved.

The sensor in the faulty zone is working properly according to your description. Whether or not the zone is 'linked out', (which it still is by the way).

Before I read your posts I reset the NVM. Then I changed the engineering and user codes back to what they were. I also allowed extra exit/entry time. They are the only changes that I made to 'default'.

I have now fully set the alarm, and am waiting safe in the 'linked out' zone. I'm hoping to see that the problem is cured.

If there's anything else I should do, I would be grateful for guidance please.

Many thanks.


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RE: scantronic 9448: false alarm in omitted zone - engels7570 - 15-06-2011 08:19 PM

Check the default settings of the zones, I assume you've got the manual, against what you think the zone settings are. I didn't know you had performed a reset.


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RE: scantronic 9448: false alarm in omitted zone - horratio - 15-06-2011 08:43 PM

Yes. Sorry about that. It was a surprise to me too. Very spur of the moment. I had it in mind from yesterday, but hoped I may not need to. Wasn't that difficult either really; except bridging pins downstairs whilst switching on the mains panel supply upstairs. Thank goodness for my wife.

I have scanned the default settings, they seem ok except that the alarm is not set to repeat if it alarms once. I will change that if the fault stops.

Some settings don't mean too much to me. The outside alarm sounds as necessary though and the zones that aren't linked out work ok.

If I spot anything else I should alter (or something crops up!!!) I will adjust it if I am safe enough (false-alarm wise) to reconnect the linked out sensor.

Time may tell me something surprising, but if there's anything that I ought to know asap, I'd be very happy to learn about it.

Many thanks for all the help to date.


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RE: scantronic 9448: false alarm in omitted zone - engels7570 - 15-06-2011 09:10 PM

Check all visual wiring in the loft or attic and using the panel as a yardstick establish whether a cable beneath the plaster could be damaged by a nail or screw. Other than that, if you are perfectly happy that no wiring faults exist, it may be possible that the detector has an unknown fault or damage. Also, if you are convinced that this detector is programmed correctly according to your instructions, you may wish to remove the wire link and re try connecting the detector. Before doing so however, it might be worth ensuring that you can set and unset the system with your user code and that it is working correctly with the wire link in place.


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RE: scantronic 9448: false alarm in omitted zone - horratio - 16-06-2011 06:30 PM

Hi again,

Thanks you.

Not been around much today, sorry. But my alarm went off at 02.30 this morning and the exit/entry was showing as at fault. So I left it off.

I tested it just now. I let it set, then I moved around (I was standing under the exit/entry zone pir) and the alarm sounded. When I switched it off, there was no zone light showing as having 'alarmed'.

Now I'm flummaxed. (Hope that's spelled correctly).

It's looking more and more like a new system is required unless someone knows better.

Many thanks for posting.


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RE: scantronic 9448: false alarm in omitted zone - engels7570 - 16-06-2011 09:28 PM

Hi Horatio,

Let's think about a new panel when we've exhausted all the avenues. First things first, have you got the manuals for the panel. We'll go from there before you start throwing money around.

Engels


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RE: scantronic 9448: false alarm in omitted zone - oasistechnical - 17-06-2011 06:49 AM

during the time that you have been following our advice, have you changed the battery???
if not i think that you should!!!
try all of the above advice BEFORE you bin your panel and start again.

post again with your results
we are here to help in any way we can

also a new panel will cost you about £40 to £50 (up to about £100.00) depending on what you want to go for!

Oasis


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RE: scantronic 9448: false alarm in omitted zone - horratio - 17-06-2011 10:23 AM

Hey, that's nice people, thanks.

I do have the manuals for the panels engels7570.

So far as replacing batteries, oasistechnical, so far I have been told that;

The battery in the bell-box is not likely to cause the fault, and
To try cure the fault before changing the battery in the panel.

But if I can be helped to cure the problem, that's my preferred route.

Many thanks, once again.


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RE: scantronic 9448: false alarm in omitted zone - engels7570 - 17-06-2011 11:18 AM

Hi Horatio,

Oasis is referring to the standby battery inside the control panel and not the battery in the external sounder. A low battery can cause all sorts of mysterious problems and it would be worth following his advice a.s.a.p.


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RE: scantronic 9448: false alarm in omitted zone - horratio - 17-06-2011 11:33 AM

Hi engels7570. OK. Thank you.

Will check battery prices locally and see what gives.

Many thanks.


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RE: scantronic 9448: false alarm in omitted zone - engels7570 - 17-06-2011 01:46 PM

Hi Horatio,

As Oasis points out, it's very important. Let's say for example that we 'link out' the panel for test purposes. If the battery is not up to scratch we could be looking at some curious results.

Keep in touch,

Engels.


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RE: scantronic 9448: false alarm in omitted zone - horratio - 17-06-2011 02:48 PM

Hi engels7570,

Thanks, I hadn't realised that.

Went to only shop in my 1 horse town but 'he was out working'.
I called the number on the shop and for only £50 I can have him visit on a call-out.
Might even get a battery if I paid extra eh!

Am searching www for local stockists instead. Will post back.

Thanks again.


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RE: scantronic 9448: false alarm in omitted zone - engels7570 - 17-06-2011 05:56 PM

Try yellow pages Horatio.

Engels


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RE: scantronic 9448: false alarm in omitted zone - engels7570 - 17-06-2011 05:57 PM

Look for electrical wholesalers, usually on the edge of town on industrial estates.

Engels.


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22-05-2012, 06:48 PM
Post: #3
RE: scantronic 9448: false alarm in omitted zone
horratio - 20-06-2011 05:37 PM

Hi engels7570,

Thanks for the tips.

Sorry but I didn't get an email to notify me of your latest two posts, don't know why.

Anyway, latest is that travelling to my 'local' 'everything' shop 12 miles away, I found a new battery for £10.00. (Even if it is a black one) lol.

Only a few nights testing will tell now, I rewired zone 3 so it gets full test b.t.way.

Will post whether successful in due course.

Many thanks again.


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RE: scantronic 9448: false alarm in omitted zone - engels7570 - 20-06-2011 07:52 PM

You're doing well Horattio, keep up the good work.

Engels


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RE: scantronic 9448: false alarm in omitted zone - horratio - 23-06-2011 12:42 PM

Thanks for the advice and encouragement engels. I think you saved me at least £100!

Thanks to everyone else that gave advice too.

As I said earlier I fitted a new battery, - and for the 3 nights since then, the system has behaved, and is very hopefully cured!

So; I did an NVM reset and fitted a new battery into the panel. Job apparently done. The reset may not have been necessary - I ought to have fitted a battery first, then I would have known!

Anyway, for anyone looking for replacement batteries; look for your local 'City Electrical Factors' or 'Newey and Eyre'. (Both very helpful and prolific). They both had batteries for mine at £11 + VAT! Of course 'Maplin' do one at about £28 if you prefer!

I have a north-facing conservatory and it has an 'animal detector' type pir because an ordinary one false alarmed when the temperature reached 80-90 degrees. During my recent tests, I found that I had to physically 'tap' that to make it alarm; so it too is kaput!

If anyone knows of a 'proper' (or better) type detector for such situation, I would be grateful for info please. And if that ought to be the subject of a new post, then perhaps someone would advise that please.

Anyway, a very big thanks for getting me this far, Thank you everyone for curing my false alarms.


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RE: scantronic 9448: false alarm in omitted zone - engels7570 - 23-06-2011 01:14 PM

Hi Horattio,

There's no need to start a new thread as far as the detector is concerned, whatever the problem you can continue using your thread until all issues are resolved. It is only then that the thread is considered closed.

Well ! you're up and running. Without patronising, it should be remembered thay you did all the work, we just sit here offering advice, so you can give yourself a 'pat on the back'. You saved yourself probably nearer £200, and sometimes more. Let's briefly look at the detector. If it works when you tap it, then there is certainly a chance that the switching reed, don't worry about the terms, is a bit lazy. On the other hand I would tend to remove the cover, silence the alarm with the code and first look for creepy crawlies that sometimes get in. Also take a look at the connections and ensure that they are not loose.

Generally, a detector facing a window will activate about late afternoon when the sun has been on that part of the property for a while. There are engineers on the site who have their own preferences, 'Quads' 'dualtecs' and so on. Therefore I shall leave this open to suggestions from others. Each has a valuable contribution to make, and I would therefore suggest that your read the replies before going out to buy a new detector, if indeed it is absolutely essential.

Well done, keep up the good work.

Engels


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RE: scantronic 9448: false alarm in omitted zone - horratio - 23-06-2011 03:29 PM

Hello again Engels,

Thank you once again for a prompt and helpful reply re the detector and the thread.

Yes, I am very pleased that I followed the excellent guidance that I received, thank you. It seems to have done the trick so far.

You're correct about the price too, the £100 that I mentioned was an approximation for a new system - at a 'rates for mates' price. It didn't include any fitting costs on top. So £200 plus is a well educated estimate indeed.

I will look whether the 'engine driver' (fly, spider) is dead inside the sensor, thank-you.

As you say, suggestion from others about 'heat defeating' sensors will be welcome (and plentiful, I hope). If I cure the sensor in the meantime so much the better. I'll post back about that in due course anyway.

Many thanks for your unfailing responses.


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RE: scantronic 9448: false alarm in omitted zone - engels7570 - 23-06-2011 03:48 PM

It's always pleasing to hear from you Horratio.

Engels


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RE: scantronic 9448: false alarm in omitted zone - Rem Alarms - 23-06-2011 08:40 PM

Advise a dual-tech. Can't go far wrong with this one; http://www.adksecurityltd.com/texecom-pr...-157-p.asp
Ron.


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RE: scantronic 9448: false alarm in omitted zone - engels7570 - 23-06-2011 08:44 PM

Wow ! Great specs on that one and temperature compensation. Price is good too.


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RE: scantronic 9448: false alarm in omitted zone - engels7570 - 23-06-2011 08:47 PM

Ron's suggestion is top of the list... well it's the only one on the list... can't see anyone coming up with anything to beat that though. Any other suggestions forthcoming ?


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RE: scantronic 9448: false alarm in omitted zone - Rem Alarms - 23-06-2011 08:54 PM

They have a Micro-X for £12.99 but It's poo.


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RE: scantronic 9448: false alarm in omitted zone - firesi83 - 23-06-2011 09:11 PM

Gotta be a dualey and rons is a beaut


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RE: scantronic 9448: false alarm in omitted zone - engels7570 - 23-06-2011 09:17 PM

Quite right Si, I don't think there is any need to look further. I would definitely go for Ron's suggestion.


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RE: scantronic 9448: false alarm in omitted zone - Rem Alarms - 23-06-2011 09:20 PM

Thank you fans but to be fair I don't make them.


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RE: scantronic 9448: false alarm in omitted zone - engels7570 - 23-06-2011 09:26 PM

Well the rest of the site reckon you're on the board of directors.


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RE: scantronic 9448: false alarm in omitted zone - firesi83 - 23-06-2011 09:31 PM

Must have shares in texecom by now


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RE: scantronic 9448: false alarm in omitted zone - engels7570 - 23-06-2011 09:35 PM

He's hiding something from us Si, we'll keep an eye on his movements... better rephrase the last bit.


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RE: scantronic 9448: false alarm in omitted zone - Rem Alarms - 23-06-2011 09:37 PM

The Veritas thought! If you want my Texecom view you're all barking Medusa!


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RE: scantronic 9448: false alarm in omitted zone - firesi83 - 23-06-2011 09:39 PM

Shouldnt that come under product placement advertising


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RE: scantronic 9448: false alarm in omitted zone - Rem Alarms - 23-06-2011 09:42 PM

Po$$ibly.


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RE: scantronic 9448: false alarm in omitted zone - engels7570 - 23-06-2011 09:46 PM

So when is the next shareholder's meeting Ron ?


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22-05-2012, 06:49 PM
Post: #4
RE: scantronic 9448: false alarm in omitted zone
Rem Alarms - 23-06-2011 09:56 PM

Say more nice things about Texecom & I'll let you know.


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RE: scantronic 9448: false alarm in omitted zone - engels7570 - 23-06-2011 09:59 PM

Ron, people are having a go at you tonight and giving me a rest for a change. I haven't been given a new nickname tonight even.


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RE: scantronic 9448: false alarm in omitted zone - Rem Alarms - 23-06-2011 10:01 PM

My new nickname is Rex... Ecom


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RE: scantronic 9448: false alarm in omitted zone - engels7570 - 23-06-2011 10:06 PM

Welcome to the site RexEcom.


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RE: scantronic 9448: false alarm in omitted zone - horratio - 27-06-2011 08:58 PM

Hi everybody,

See you've all been having a great time in my absence. Well done.

I missed the tips and the fun because I forgot that I wouldn't be notified of any new responses until I had 'signed on' again. Doh!

Thank goodness for weekends; I've checked for 'dead engine drivers' now and the inside of the sensor is clean as the day it was made! (Although the plastic 'lens' in the cover may be much more opaque)? I wouldn't know.

Anyway, without rushing to buy something new just yet, here's what else I found, if it means enough for anyone to offer a diagnosis please.

The sensor is a TriTech Microwave/PIR Intrusion detector. It has a 'pet filter' which is basically a mirror finish set of 'fingers', which are dish - shaped. The whole of the filter is tiltable - up and down to some degree, for pet hieght adjustment.

The leaflet says this bit is for the PIR and should be removed if there are no pets (there aren't now). However, I had it installed because a normal PIR would false alarm due to heat in the conservatory. At the time though, I think we did have a cat too.

Anyway, the 'tamper' switch on the sensor works perfectly (I found)!

The LED is tricolour, but even when it turns red, the alarm does not sound without lots of enthusiastic arm-waving!

I taped the contact breaker shut and tried the alarm then, (i.e. without the front cover in place)- and it worked perfectly.

So my dilemna is; do I remove the pet filter 'mirror' to see whether it works normally then, (as the leaflet indicates). And if it does work ok with the pet filter removed, will it start false alarming when the heat builds up during the day?

I ask first rather that try it myself as : 1) I may break the pet filter fixings, then I'm defo into a new PIR, and 2) I don't want to risk unnecessarily any false alarms during the daytime whilst I am out.

'Cos that is where I came in years ago and had the current sensor fitted for that very reason.

What remains, I believe, if the pet filter is removed is an adjustable microwave detector.

Thank you in anticipation of an education on the matter of Microwave/PIR sensors with pet filters and adjustable microwave sensitivity.

Kind regards to all.


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RE: scantronic 9448: false alarm in omitted zone - lozevans555 - 27-06-2011 09:38 PM

Is there a "pulse count" jumper in the PIR set to a less sensitive setting?


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RE: scantronic 9448: false alarm in omitted zone - lozevans555 - 27-06-2011 09:41 PM

Second thoughts. Could you post a picture of the inside of youre dectector?


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RE: scantronic 9448: false alarm in omitted zone - engels7570 - 28-06-2011 09:19 AM

Usually the mirror thing which is "a pet filter" is not a "pet filter". There are basically two types of lens. One is Fresnel and the other is Mirror. You have a mirror lens which is adjusted according to the desired pick up pattern. If you do not have any pets, adjust the lens so that the top, which is usually curved in a sort of arc shape is in line with the bottom of the window, just imagine a straight line between them. Replace the cover and walk test the passive. Test on a single pulse count first, when you are happy with the pick up pattern, move the pulse count to two and test again. At a low pulse count the sensitivity is high, so as Loz points out, you need to achieve a low sensitivity together with a good pick up pattern. Low pulse count means high sensitivity, High pulse count means low sensitivity. Let us know how you get on.

Engels


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RE: scantronic 9448: false alarm in omitted zone - horratio - 28-06-2011 04:18 PM


(28-06-2011 09:19 AM)engels7570 Wrote: Usually the mirror thing which is "a pet filter" is not a "pet filter". There are basically two types of lens. One is Fresnel and the other is Mirror. You have a mirror lens which is adjusted according to the desired pick up pattern. If you do not have any pets, adjust the lens so that the top, which is usually curved in a sort of arc shape is in line with the bottom of the window, just imagine a straight line between them. Replace the cover and walk test the passive. Test on a single pulse count first, when you are happy with the pick up pattern, move the pulse count to two and test again. At a low pulse count the sensitivity is high, so as Loz points out, you need to achieve a low sensitivity together with a good pick up pattern. Low pulse count means high sensitivity, High pulse count means low sensitivity. Let us know how you get on.

Engels


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Hi there, Many thanks for the replies and advice once more.

Well; Lozevans, here is the photo that you suggested I post (if I can fathom attaching it here). I hope it helps, sorry you have to lie down to look at it lol. There is no mention of a pulse count jumper. There is a jumper to connect/disconnect the working of the tri-colour led function, but it says that makes no difference to the correct working - it's just for walk-testing. The mirror assembly is at the bottom of the picture (if you lie down the correct way). Above the circuit board from left to right is the terminal block, the LED, the LED jumper (see above) and the microwave adjustment.

And, Engels, on re-reading, you are right again! the leaflet refers to any 'pet filter' being on the face of the mirror - but there is nothing on the face of my mirror.

I can adjust the mirror, and I will do. But there is no facility to adjust a pulse count, - unless I misunderstand you.

Thank you both for your help.
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Hi there, that was me; got words and picture in wrong order and my signature seemed to be omitted too. Sorry.


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RE: scantronic 9448: false alarm in omitted zone - lozevans555 - 28-06-2011 04:56 PM

Try walking across its field of view instead of "arm waving" . It has to pick human sized heat and human sized movement when the pet filter is in place.


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RE: scantronic 9448: false alarm in omitted zone - horratio - 28-06-2011 05:10 PM

Ok Lozevans, thanks. Actually, when I posted that remark though, I was arm waving frantically at very close range because all else had failed -i.e. much walking about in front of the sensor in an attempt to make it alarm had failed. I've now adjusted the mirror (rightly or wrongly) and turned the microwave adjuster to minimum. I'm waiting for any more comments now before re-testing this evening.

Actually too, in my previous post, I said that there wasn't a pet filter - only a mirror. Re-reading yet again, there could still be a pet filter (bit of dark plastic or something) clipped above the top of the mirror. Unsure.

Many thanks.


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RE: scantronic 9448: false alarm in omitted zone - lozevans555 - 28-06-2011 05:15 PM

That dark plastic is a cover to mask off the anti creap (downwards) view. I'd remove that if I were you and set the MW to halfway.


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RE: scantronic 9448: false alarm in omitted zone - horratio - 28-06-2011 05:32 PM


(28-06-2011 05:15 PM)lozevans555 Wrote: That dark plastic is a cover to mask off the anti creap (downwards) view. I'd remove that if I were you and set the MW to halfway.

Many thanks. Is it remove-able without breaking it please?

Attached is a scan of instruction portion referring to the pet filter if it helps.


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RE: scantronic 9448: false alarm in omitted zone - lozevans555 - 28-06-2011 05:58 PM

If you don't own any pets then remove it. Also its very unlikely that the environment inside your conservatory would create accidental activations.


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RE: scantronic 9448: false alarm in omitted zone - horratio - 28-06-2011 06:08 PM

OK. Thank you for your advice Loz.


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RE: scantronic 9448: false alarm in omitted zone - lozevans555 - 28-06-2011 06:23 PM


(28-06-2011 06:08 PM)horratio Wrote: OK. Thank you for your advice Loz.

No worries dude.

Let us know how you get on


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RE: scantronic 9448: false alarm in omitted zone - horratio - 28-06-2011 06:35 PM

Well, I've got the pet filter off without breaking it, -flimsy plastic bit.

The Microwave is set to halfway sensitivity wise.

Don't really know where mirror is now, tried it many positions though.

Result so far is that LED is readily showing fully red when moving across the sensor field, but,.....the alarm isn't going off at all?

In need of help still I reckon.

Thanks for taking time.


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RE: scantronic 9448: false alarm in omitted zone - lozevans555 - 28-06-2011 06:49 PM

I think that two led colours should iluminate on the detector to indicate both the Pir and MW are detecting heat/movement. However some detectors don't do this.

Also, just a long shot but check that no-one has linked that zone out inside the panel.


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RE: scantronic 9448: false alarm in omitted zone - horratio - 28-06-2011 07:19 PM

Thanks again. Can rule out the linked out part ok thanks.

The instructions says: (and I quote), because I couldn't make it up!

"the tricolor LED should be OFF before walk testing. Walk from outside the intended protection area and observe the tricolor LED.
The edge of the microwave pattern is determined by the first yellow, microwave activation of the LED (or the first red activation if the green PIR LED activates first)." WOT?!!

On the same subject it goes on to say "a detector alarm is signaled by the first red activation of the tricolor LED after an initial green or yellow activation". (A bit I can understand there).

It ends by saying that the detector will default to pir protection if the microwave subsystem fails. I can understand that bit too.

Regarding the tricolour, it's very hard to tell, it all happens so quickly, but certainly the green light does work too. May not be when it ought tho.

Does the above suggest anything further please?


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RE: scantronic 9448: false alarm in omitted zone - horratio - 28-06-2011 08:34 PM

Oh sorry all, I forgot to say; as regards a yellow light activation - I have never noticed one at all. Perhaps that means something to someone?

Thanks for reading.


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22-05-2012, 06:49 PM
Post: #5
RE: scantronic 9448: false alarm in omitted zone
Rem Alarms - 28-06-2011 08:45 PM

I think it's a single tricolour LED. Hence you would only see one colour at a time.
Ron.


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RE: scantronic 9448: false alarm in omitted zone - engels7570 - 28-06-2011 09:24 PM

Hi Horratio,

Generally speaking. You have two different detectors in one little box. One is microwave and the other is passive infra red. Each detection device should be able to operate independantly of the other but it depends on the maker. They are supposed to activate together for the alarm to sound. This is called a series/parallel arranngement. So, strictly speaking, dependant on manufacture, both the microwave detector and the passive infra red lights should come on at the same time as each other ( usually yellow and red but it differs ). In normal circumstances you should generally just have a green light on if you stand perfectly still. Note that these are general notes and may or may not apply in every circumstance. If you have the instructions, they should tell you how to set up each detector independantly of each other and then adjust them so that they work together. This is called Dual Technology because two technologies, passive infra red and microwave are working together.

Take Care

Engels


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RE: scantronic 9448: false alarm in omitted zone - engels7570 - 28-06-2011 09:26 PM

Sorry Ron, Crossed posts, my fault, and I agree about the tri colours but they can be a bit of a pain don't you think.

Take Care

Engels.


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RE: scantronic 9448: false alarm in omitted zone - Rem Alarms - 28-06-2011 09:28 PM

Correct, I hardly ever think.


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RE: scantronic 9448: false alarm in omitted zone - engels7570 - 28-06-2011 09:31 PM

Re: Post No. 78; Well I might just as well apologise to everyone tonight. Sorry Loz, my fault, you had already explained this at post 78.

Take Care

Engels


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RE: scantronic 9448: false alarm in omitted zone - engels7570 - 28-06-2011 09:31 PM

And Ron's on form again tonight, just waiting for the other two to show up now.


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RE: scantronic 9448: false alarm in omitted zone - lozevans555 - 28-06-2011 09:40 PM


(28-06-2011 09:31 PM)engels7570 Wrote: Re: Post No. 78; Well I might just as well apologise to everyone tonight. Sorry Loz, my fault, you had already explained this at post 78.

Take Care

Engels

Its ok. I'm still trying to get drunk just so I can make sense of tonight

Is it a full moon? I seems really weird on here tonight


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RE: scantronic 9448: false alarm in omitted zone - engels7570 - 28-06-2011 10:58 PM

Look at the back of your hands, check for hairs growing rapidly. My cat is behaving suspiciously, so there could be something amiss.


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RE: scantronic 9448: false alarm in omitted zone - horratio - 29-06-2011 04:50 PM

Hi all,

Having fun whilst I'm not there again? Makes for a great read, thanks.

My tri-colour LED does indeed only show 1 colour at a time.

Normally it isn't on. However, I have noticed when 'messing' about with it that it can show green and (usually) then, goes to red. I have never seen yellow though.

When I first posted, I had all on to make the light go red (but when I did, it would alarm).

Now though, it goes red quickly when irritated by movement, just as a normal PIR would, but it doesn't set off the alarm, no mater how long I keep it on red.

The only other thing I can say about it is that when I take off the front cover, tape down the tamper contact and arm the system, the sensor has no problem in setting off the alarm as it ought. Is that weird? Am I going to grow hairs on my hands too?

I don't know whether without the front on it would cause false alarms but it would sure get dirty.

I hardly ever think either btw, but this has caused me to try at least.

If this info causes anyone to have thoughts on a possible cure, I sure would appreciate them. Thanks to all.


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RE: scantronic 9448: false alarm in omitted zone - engels7570 - 29-06-2011 09:57 PM

See Post No. 82. Both detectors should activate, it would appear that only one is activating in your case. Follow post to set. The White front aperture is not acting as a normal fresnel lens would do, since the mirror is doing this job. If the white bit is dirty, put some washing up liquid, very lightly on a clean dishcloth, squeeze it out until almost dry, so to speak and give it a clean. Have you found the microwave adjustment ? if so. Check the instructions to turn off the microwave and use the passive infra red detector first. Get this working satisfactorily and then adjust the microwave.

Engels


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RE: scantronic 9448: false alarm in omitted zone - horratio - 30-06-2011 10:01 AM

Hi Engels, thank you.

I believe that you are correct, and I had suspected the same thing funnily enough, but don't know how to solve it. I don't see the green light prior to the red one when I try to set off the alarm, and from the instructions, I believe that should happen. So no they apparently aren't working as a pair. But as I said it all happens very quickly. I only ever notice the green light when I am on a ladder messing with the sensor adjustments.

I can turn the microwave sensitivity to low, but apparently not off; and Ive tried it on low, mid-way and full. I don't know where the microwave detector 'lens', if it has one, is situated. Not that it matters probably.

I assume that the adjustment for the other (PIR) detector is the mirror? In a previous post you advised me where to set that ( it only moves up and down in its fixing and has numbers marked on it). But I'm afraid I didn't understand. Once again though I have tried the mirror at the top, bottom and middle of its travel.

As for the white portion of the cover, it appears to be clean. Though of course it could have become 'cloudy' with age.

However, if the mirror is responsible for the PIR detector and the indication for its activation is red, then that bit is working ok.

If you can suggest anymore from that, please do, in the meantime I will mess about with random adjustments some more.

Many thanks.


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RE: scantronic 9448: false alarm in omitted zone - horratio - 30-06-2011 01:36 PM

Hi, It's me again!

Well, I've read the two page sensor instructions again, and guess what, much of the above can be disregarded it seems.

Apparently the alarm is triggered by this particular Tricolour sensor when either:

1. The microwave is activated (indicated by yellow via the single LED), followed by a red light showing, indicating that the PIR has also detected movement, or

2. The LED shows green (first trip of the PIR) followed by red, which indicates two 'trips' of the PIR.

My trouble stems from:

1. A yellow colour never being displayed (so far as I can see) even during a walk test with the cover removed, and

2. The PIR light going directly to red which fails to activate the alarm. It won't go green and then red.

Actually it will sometimes go green then red when the cover is removed and the alarm will trigger.
But it won't do that with the cover on, it goes directly to red and fails to alarm.

I begin to think the sensor has become senseless with age, similar to myself really.

Could anyone suggest anything other (about the sensor that is) please, otherwise I fear that it may need replacing?

Many thanks.


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RE: scantronic 9448: false alarm in omitted zone - engels7570 - 30-06-2011 04:40 PM

Hi Horratio,

Well let's talk about age and type first. Personally I have never come across this particular unit and Ron, in a previous post, quite correctly pointed out that indication is by way of a tricolour led ( A light emitting diode capable of changing colour dependant on the applied resistance in that circuit). The bit in brackets can be ignored since it's basically 'gobbledeguk' and of no consequence. So let's look at age and manufacture (type). Strictly speaking, a detector should last for at least five years, mine were installed some twenty or more years ago and are trouble free. There are detectors available which may give five years service and possibly not. It depends on the maker. By and large, those used by the trade are built to extremely high standards and also... built to last. You have two choices; either continue using your valuable time on a unit which may be defective or else replace it with new for a few quid, thus putting an end to the frustration. One of my earlier posts suggested that each installer has his/her own preferences. My own preference in dual technology is where indication is by way of three seperate led's red, yellow and green as opposed to a single tri-colour, I also prefer seperate adjustment features for both microwave and passive infra red. That said, you may be advised by other engineers on the site to dispense with the dual technology unit and replace it with say, a quad passive or something similar. Either way, since the resolution of your dilemma shall cost relatively little, far less than a few beers, with a fully functional unit at the end of the day, perhaps you should consider a replacement. Saving you precious time which could be spent lounging in the garden or whatever. Take a look at this site http://www.securitywarehouse.com for some ideas, or type 'detectors' or similar into your search engine. I am sure that you shall receive excellent recommendations from other engineers on the site.

Let us know your decision,

Take Care

Engels


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RE: scantronic 9448: false alarm in omitted zone - Rem Alarms - 30-06-2011 07:30 PM

I found Rokonet dual-techs only lasted around 2 years. Can heartily recommend Texecom if a replacement is required.
Ron.


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RE: scantronic 9448: false alarm in omitted zone - engels7570 - 30-06-2011 09:51 PM

Go with Ron on Devices, he's never recommended a bad un'.

Engels.


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RE: scantronic 9448: false alarm in omitted zone - horratio - 05-07-2011 02:49 PM

Hi everyone,

Thank you all for the advice.

I haven't gone AWOL, just been really busy elsewhere, sorry.

Seems the thing to do is is to replace the sensor then. Doh. My wife said that ages ago. She's laughing.

I had come to the same conclusion, but haven't been relishing the idea much.

I will replace it asap though and post the results. It won't be this week.

At least a new battery saved the system though. That's good going to me.

Thank you for your forbearance.

Regards to all.


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RE: scantronic 9448: false alarm in omitted zone - engels7570 - 05-07-2011 10:47 PM

It's a five minute job Horattio. No sweat. Have you gone with Ron's choice ?

Engels


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